Something in the world of floating have you stumped?
Show Highlights
There are lots of things you can measure when testing the quality of your water, for sanitation and comfort. Many of which aren’t specifically designed for float tanks. This is kind of an open secret in the industry, but most things simply aren’t accurate because of the incredibly high salinity of float tank solution. And pH seems to be one of them. This can cause float center owners major headaches as it’s often one of the first things that health departments/regulators will want to measure when they come and inspect your place (if they do at all).
Graham and Ashkahn try to break down this mystery of float water and try to break down some theories as to why it might be that float tank water might not have accurate pH readings, regardless of how you measure it.
Listen to Just the Audio
Transcription of this episode… (in case you prefer reading)
Graham: Today’s question for all you listeners is: “The NAFTS says” – By the way that stands for
North American Float Tank Standard.
Ashkahn: Did they write it as an abbreviation in there?
Graham: Yeah, they did write it as an abbreviation. Yeah. Anyway, it says, “We are unaware of any testing device that will accurately measure pH in the float solution.” End of quotes. And the rest of the question is “However, float tank owners claim to be adjusting pH levels. And at least one float tank company sells pH+ and pH-. What gives?“
Ashkahn: What gives?
Graham: Well… it’s a little complicated.
Ashkahn: Yeah. I mean part of the reason I think you hear …
Graham: You can’t see, but I’m pulling out my collar right now.
I mean I think part of the reason you hear inconsistent information about this is because there’s probably inconsistent experiences and knowledge and devices.
Graham: And we’re all just very confused.
Ashkahn: Everybody is really confused. Yeah, I mean so here’s what we know. I mean, is that we haven’t personally found a device, like a testing device manufacturer, tell us specifically will work accurately in the float tank water with pH.
That’s kind of where we’re at. I don’t have that hard confirmation, like a letter from someone who makes the testing device saying they tested it in their lab, and they can confirm that we are, in fact, getting an accurate pH with the device.
Graham: And there may be manufacturers out there who have had conversations like that.
Ashkahn: Yeah.
Graham: Or trying to work toward that. It’s just that we haven’t necessarily seen that or had personal experience with them.
Ashkahn: Yeah, so I don’t know. Some manufacturers, maybe they have figured this out, maybe other ones haven’t and just think they have. Like I don’t know. It’s hard to say exactly if someone’s claiming they figured it out what lengths they’ve gone to to actually confirm that. But that’s usually the lengths that I like to go to. I like to get the actual manufacturer of the device to have tested it and, like, on an official stationery with their company letterhead kind of officially saying, “yeah, we’re standing behind this”.
Graham: And this is a funny differentiation. It’s not exactly related to the question, but make sure to get the technical department on the line when you’re talking to manufacturers of testing devices. Because if you end up just on the general line or talking to a salesperson, absolutely they will pretty much tell you what you want to hear. So having a salesperson tell you, “oh sure, it will test pH in the float tank water” is not the confirmation you want. Again yeah, official letterhead, maybe talking to the technical department.
Ashkahn: Yeah, ideally you don’t even want the company to just tell you yes, like ideally, you want them to take a sample of the Epsom salt water and actually use their pH device and some other thing they can use to calibrate or make sure that it is correct.
And that’s really the tough thing when it comes to pH specifically. I think it’s kind of hard. How do you know if you’re getting an accurate pH reading? Because you just have the one pH device that you’re using, and you get a number out of it and, like, if that number is right or wrong when you’re testing it in your float center is not something that you can really determine.
So some of the reasons that if we have suspicion that pH can be kind of inaccurate because of the salt water is: one is we switch pH devices they give us in our center, they give us very different results from one another. And the devices seem to be consistent with themselves.
Graham: Yeah. So the readings that we have are very much consistent. And the thing that we’re worried about is validity. Right. And improper readings could be one of the two. You could use the same testing equipment and it’s shooting back 6.8 this time and 7.8 this time and 8.9 this time, and it’s all the same water. That would be very inconsistent, but that’s not necessarily what we’re seeing.
I mean if you take a reading of the pH and 6.8 and you take another one, chances are it’s going to be 6.8 again if you’re just taking it five minutes later or in that range.
Ashkahn: And if you have a pH+, most likely it’s going to go up, and if you have a pH-, then that number’s going to go down.
So the question is: Is that number right in the first place?
Graham: Yeah. When we’re getting 6.8, for example, how do we know that that wasn’t 7.5? And the next time, although we’re getting 6.8, it’s still at that 7.5 level.
Ashkahn: Yeah. So that’s one thing that’s been suspicious to us. Like we bought a different pH tester and, all of a sudden, our levels were very different than the ones we were testing with that different device.
The other thing that gives me some suspicion, when we did that test with the NSF, the study of just distilled water versus Epsom salt water, they took kind of some basic testing levels on their test. So basically they took distilled water, and they measured things, and one of the things they measured was pH. And then they added Epsom salt to that water and re-measured everything. And, theoretically, that should have been the only difference. And the pH jumped quite a bit between those two, between the distilled water and the Epsom salt water. And so that raises a few questions, right?
There could be a couple of possibilities as to why that’s different. One, I guess they just started with different pH water for those two samples. But I kind of doubt that’s what happened. I think they were probably using water that was very consistent with itself.
Graham: They could have just lied and thrown darts at a board and never actually tested anything. Yeah, I don’t think that’s likely either, so …
Ashkahn: So really the two big possibilities is that the Epsom salt itself is actually affecting the pH, right? So at the point they added the Epsom salt in that was what was changing the pH of the water.
Graham: And you put that over some kind of alien mind control conspiracy?
Ashkahn: All right. There are two and a half possibilities. And I don’t know, from talking to Epsom salt manufacturers, it doesn’t, at least, seem like the Epsom salt should be making a big impact on pH.
That’s what they told us, and maybe that differs from manufacturer to manufacturer. At least that’s what PQ told us.
Graham: Yeah, at least from PQ, they said their Epsom salt is actually chemically composed to be neutral. So it’s actually supposed to be seven pH, so if you’re adding in the PQ salt, it shouldn’t actually affect the pH levels. Theoretically.
Ashkahn: If you’re lower, it will get it closer to seven, I guess. Not that it won’t affect it.
Graham: Right. That’s a good point. For sure.
Ashkahn: And so the other possibility if the salt’s not affecting it, the other possibility is that the reader is not giving you the same result that it was beforehand, right? So that’s kind of the two different steps of logic.
And we weren’t really able to get a clear answer from the NSF about that, and I kind of came out of it with the understanding that they didn’t think their pH was the most accurate thing in the world.
Graham: And that they didn’t want to give us an official statement that said that. They kind of don’t want to admit that their tests aren’t necessarily up to measuring things in our salt water, so they kind of did their own pulling of collars when we were having that conversation.
Ashkahn: I feel like they also alluded the fact they probably could get much more accurate pH reading with some much more expensive and sophisticated equipment.
So, I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility, but it does make me question getting any old pH reader and trusting it without actually very much validating with the company that makes that that it’s not being influenced by the salt that’s in the water.
Graham: Yeah, pretty much anything off the shelf I’d be highly skeptical of. I mean I certainly don’t know of anything unmodified that you can just buy from a testing website or a testing manufacturer that I, personally, would have confidence works to get accurate pH in the salt solution. That includes test strips, digital readers, refractometer kind of readers. Like I don’t think any of them are just shooting back the accurate levels that we have.
Ashkahn: Uh-huh
Graham: But again, personal opinion, we have heard from other people in the industry, especially manufacturers, who are the ones that have done really deep research into this area that they do feel more confident than we do in pH readings.
Ashkahn: Right, but …
Graham: That might be through modification or customization, or …
Ashkahn: Yeah. To me, I’m really searching for that actual verification from the company.
Hopefully, maybe someone out there has that. We just haven’t seen it.
Graham: Yeah. Although I’d like people to send us every single piece of float information. It would solve all the mysteries I personally have.For some reason people don’t just do that by default.
So, if you’re out there listening to this and you have a letter from a pH testing manufacturer, shoot it over our way. Or alkalinity or any letter from a manufacturer that’s tested accurately in the float tanks would be awesome. Awesome resource to have.
Ashkahn: Definitely.
Graham: I think that’s it.
Ashkahn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s it
Graham: Any more confounding questions you have, send them our way as well at Floattanksolutions.com/podcast.
Recent Podcast Episodes
How Marketing Strategies Evolve – DSP 230
Graham and Ashkahn wax nostalgic in this episode tracing back the history of Float On to its origins. They were younger, bright eyed and the world felt full of possibility. How they advertised floating was a whole different beast back then, too. Part of it was how different the industry was, part of it was how different awareness in Portland was, and parts of it were just about Float On still being a young business.
The guys share their successes, lessons, and bold faced mistakes they made along the way in learning how to deal with the idea of filling tanks, as well as some of the constants that have remained throughout the years.
Future Proofing Float Tanks – DSP 229
Float Tanks are expensive. Purchasing tanks can easily end up being half of your opening costs when starting out, so it makes sense to want to purchase tanks that have a long lifespan.
Thinking about which float tank manufacturers might last the longest, though, is probably not the way to think about this issue. For one, it’s impossible to tell what manufacturer is going to be around the longest. What’s more, if anything does break, the vast majority of the time you don’t need to go to the manufacturer to get it fixed in the first place.
Ashkahn and Graham share their thoughts on proper float tank care and the steps any float center owner should take when considering a tank.
How to Run Experiments with Floaters – DSP 228
It’s important to acknowledge that float center owners without a scientific background probably shouldn’t be running experiments on floaters willy nilly. It should also be noted that Graham and Ashkahn aren’t scientists, despite being huge fans of self-experimentation.
There has been a lot of talk recently, however, of float centers collaborating with student researchers to help run experiments, though. Graham and Ashkahn discuss (with a fair amount of levity) what it might take to properly run experiments in a float tank, which they understand is no easy task.
What are Good Plants to Have in a Float Center? – DSP 227
Plants give life, both aesthetically and literally, to any room they’re placed in. The environment inside a float center, however, can be the absolute worst place for certain plants, even ones that would normally be considered fine for your local area.
Graham and Ashkahn pull in Jordan to talk about different plants that thrive in a humid float center environment and some tips on how to take care of them.
Getting Salty With Speakers: Roy Vore – DSP 226
With the Float Conference coming up, Graham and Ashkahn are talking with lots of really smart people who will be presenting this year. It’s not every day that they get to ask molecular biologists questions about float tank sanitation, so they decided to take the opportunity to ask the experts the questions that the industry needs answers to.
Today Roy Vore is taking time to share some of his knowledge about microbiology and water sanitation, along with his work in the pool and spa industry.
Latest Blog Posts
Choosing a Water Heater for Your Center
You may not be surprised to hear that a Float Center is a business which has a hefty water requirement. You may, however, be surprised to hear that the majority of the water demand you’ll be facing day-to-day is going to be in the form of showers and (if you’re doing any laundry on-site) a washing machine.
The factors of energy usage and cost over time should also be taken into consideration when deciding upon your water heater…
Float Fund – NSF Magnesium Sulfate Test Results
I’m happy to announce to first results from the Float Fund testing. This experiment, run through the NSF, was to see how salt water, with no other form of disinfection, actually effected harmful organisms. We ran tests with two different microorganisms, and in this post we’ll talk about how one (Pseudomonas) got its ass kicked by salt-water and how the other one (Enterococcus) didn’t seem phased in the slightest.
If you want to skip straight to the test results, you can download them in their entirety. Since they have a lot of fancy laboratory lingo, we’ll spend the rest of this post breaking down the different aspects of the testing.
Float Memberships and Packages
Customers are great, but getting those customers to commit to returning on a regular basis is even better. There are a few different schools of thought in regards to encouraging return customers, but they’ll generally fall into two main categories, Memberships and Packages.
We’re going to provide a little insight into how to utilize each of them at your center.
Marketing is all About Relationships
Marketing is one of those words that has a lot of different meanings from one person to the next. Personally, I’ve studied marketing in one way or another for the past 20 years. I suppose you can say I’m a marketing nerd (I’ll wear that badge proudly). I even annually budget myself a different marketing conference to go to… for fun.
