Do Floaters really Go into a “Theta State”? – DSP 160

Sometimes it’s difficult to differentiate the claims of scientific benefit of floating from those that are just anecdotal. The idea that floating causing greater theta brainwave activity is one of those things that sounds right, but what does the data say? And how can everyone else find out?

Fortunately, Graham and Ashkahn have done the legwork and even talked to the researchers who do this kind of stuff. They break down exactly how true the Theta claim is and what, if any, real research corroborates it.

Ricardo Gil-da-Costa at the 2016 Float Conference (Starts during float EEG data)

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Transcription of this episode… (in case you prefer reading)

Ashkahn: This is silly Ashkahn in here, and old serious Graham.

Graham: Serious Graham, yes, that’s right. All right, so we have a question today. And it is, is there any sound science showing … I assume they mean like-

Ashkahn: Sound science.

Graham: Science that is sound, not like-

Ashkahn: Yeah, especially not bunk science.

Graham: Sound, auditory-based science. “Is there any sound science showing the brainwaves slowing down into the theta state?” And they didn’t say “in a float tank,” but I’m just going to assume that that was the end of the question.

Ashkahn: Ever.

Graham: Because definitely, otherwise, yeah, there’s-

Ashkahn: Yeah.

Graham: There’s a-

Ashkahn: It is a brainwave state. So this is an interesting one, because this idea of like the theta state and theta brain waves has been around for a long time. People have their float centers-

Graham: Millennia.

Ashkahn: Named after it. There’s various things in books. There’s all sorts of clever float names, including theta, that go back years and years and years. And as far as I know, the first actual research to really show theta brainwaves happening in a float tank didn’t happen until 2016.

Graham: Yeah. In a more serious way, I guess, that we can get behind and say, “Okay, yeah, we’re pretty sure that these are generated as an effect of being in there.”

Ashkahn: And part of the problem is just technology. EEG headsets-

Graham: And salt water. Kind of a combination, yeah, I guess is really.

Ashkahn: And salt water. And any water, just waterproof EEG sensors are not a very common thing, and when we first opened, I had this, like, “We should measure people’s EEG brainwaves.” And I started trying to find a waterproof EEG sensor, and they didn’t really exist.

Then you add in salt water, which is conductive, and all that sort of stuff, and it destroys everything. And now you have a way, way bigger issue. So I think there’s been some stuff where people were taking EEG measurements before and after people float, but in terms of actually getting data while people are in a float tank, it’s only very recently that we even have the ability, technology-wise, to do that.

As far as I know, Tom Fine, back in the day, attempted it, like in the 80s.

Graham: Yeah, like with John Turner kind of studies?

Ashkahn: Yeah. And I’m pretty sure he had like a single EEG probe that he stuck to people’s foreheads. And pretty much half the time, it would break, because of the salt water. As a result, I think his data was just so hit or miss that I don’t even know if he ever really published it, or put it out in any kind of formal way.

Graham: Yeah, and if he does, we’ve definitely had conversations where it doesn’t seem like he feels like that was an absolute conclusion of the work he was doing, or anything like that.

Ashkahn: But I think that’s where he did see some theta brainwaves, and that’s kind of part of what fueled a lot of people, like saying that as a “fact”, quote unquote “fact” for many years.

Graham: Yeah, I think that, in combination with it just making sense. That was honestly how it got perpetuated for a long time, you know, and as theta brainwaves come out as that kind of between waking and sleeping meditative state that you hit when you’re meditating, and that feeling familiar in the float tank.

I think there’s a lot of anecdotal stories that also went into this just spreading. But outside of the Tom Fine research, there’s not really even anything that I’m super aware of out there that was showing that kind of continued theta state, or again, had proven it before.

And what we’re talking about here is the 2016 Ricardo Gil-da-Costa talk, I think, probably does the best job of talking about the new sensors that he designed and was using in Justin Feinstein’s lab. And that’s where you got, as an audience member, you actually got to see it up on the screen of the full during float brainwaves.

What am I trying to say? But laid out over time, like the timeline of how that goes, and really getting down into, and the frequencies, which is really cool.

Ashkahn: Yeah, so some context. Ricardo Gil-da-Costa runs a company called Neuroverse, and he makes these wireless waterproof EEG sensors that are these sticker things that you put on your forehead that connect to this little device that is able to take EEG readings and send them out wirelessly.

Justin Feinstein got to work with him to try to use those in the float tank, because he was also having much trouble trying to get EEG sensors that just were being destroyed because of the salt water. And they turned out to be able to work, and hold up against the salt.

So that was the first time they were able to actually do that data, like find the actual live data of people’s EEG readings in a more robust way over the course of someone actually being in a float tank. Ricardo came out to the 2016 Float Conference to present the data they had found.

And none of this is, as far as I know, been published. I think they’re working on getting this stuff published currently.

Graham: Yeah.

Ashkahn: But this hasn’t been published or peer-reviewed, or anything like that, to the point where you would find this information in some sort of medical journal. This was just them presenting their findings. And what they can do with these wireless EEG sensors is, they’re just getting live readouts for the entire duration.

Like the 60 or 90 minutes of someone being in a float tank, and onstage he just played it in fast time, and you can just watch these various colors and things like that change. And I think there’s also a lot of analysis they have to do, and what they’re seeing is based on presumptions, and there’s a lot of asterisks and caveats that come with them not wanting to overstep what they’re seeing, or what kind of results we should be reading into the data.

But it did seem, at least from my memory, seemed to show that the theta brainwaves were, I think, around the 45 minute mark-ish-

Graham: Yep. Yeah, for sure.

Ashkahn: On average. Like, starting to pop up in people. And also, how high alpha waves seemed to be generated in a higher quantity. And-

Graham: I remember sitting in the audience, being like, “oh, that’s such good news for all of the folks that have theta in their name.”

Ashkahn: I know, I know.

Graham: It would have been really embarrassing if we had assumed that, for all of these decades.

Ashkahn: Right. We even have like a little music label called Theta State Records, so I’m just like sitting there, holding my collar, like “Please!” So yeah, it was definitely good news.

Graham: And you should listen, you should totally go to the Float Conference website, to the video section.

Ashkahn: Because we don’t know what we’re talking about.

Graham: We barely know what we’re talking about, yeah.

Ashkahn: You shouldn’t be listening to us as the source of authority on this.

Graham: But yeah, the video section of the Float Conference website has pretty much all of our past videos, throughout all of the years of the Float Conference, and 2016 Ricardo Gil-da-Costa presentation is what we’re talking about, and you can go watch the entire thing for yourself.

Ashkahn: Yeah.

Graham: It’s like a half an hour, or 45 minutes, or somewhere in that range.

Ashkahn: So yeah, I guess the answer is closer to yes now than it’s ever been.

Graham: Yep, or since 2016, I guess.

Ashkahn: Yeah.

Graham: Or probably closer now, and we just don’t know about it, as well, yet.

Ashkahn: Yeah, so hopefully, hopefully soon.

Graham: We’ve tried to get researchers to call us every week with check-ins about where they’re at, and so far, no takers.

Ashkahn: And hopefully, I think hopefully, at some point, they’ll actually be able to get that data in a more formalized form and put it out, which would be super cool.

Graham: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And again, add some credibility to us and make people not feel silly for launching into naming their companies. Good. Well, if you have any other scientific questions, again, feel free to reach out to us, and we’ll let you know what we know, and probably direct you to experts who can better answer things.

Ashkahn: Yeah, just go down to floattanksolutions.com/podcast. Say hello.

Graham: Cheers, everyone.

Ashkahn: Bye.

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