Something in the world of floating have you stumped?
Show Highlights
Graham and Jake are still in a sans Ashkahn world at Daily Solutions, but they’re not letting it harsh their mellow.
The guys are talking about the different types of spray-in insulation today. It’s a pretty common material in construction and it can be a fantastic insulator for float centers, if you get the right type.
Jake and Graham go over the differences between open cell and closed cell insulation and why, specifically, float centers should avoid open cell insulation. They also provide some excellent pointers on the materials themselves and good conversations to have with a contractor regarding insulation.
Show Resources
Listen to Just the Audio
Transcription of this episode… (in case you prefer reading)
Graham: All right. Welcome everybody to our podcast.
Jake: Thank you for joining us.
Graham: I am Graham.
Jake: I am Jake.
Graham: I thought you were going to say, “I am Ashkahn.” I’m like so used to hearing that.
Jake: I thought about it.
Graham: Okay, all right. So today’s question is, “What about spray-in insulation? My contractor recommended it for the building I’m moving into, which is on the older side.”
Jake: Hmm, the building is on the older side.
Graham: I assume not the spray-in insulation-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Or the contractor.
Jake: Yeah, I know, right? What’s with this insulation? All right, so I guess we’re talking about on-site spray-in polyurethane, like foam insulation.
Graham: Yeah, so I guess first of all, you can spray almost anything, right?
Jake: Yeah, like you can do blow-in of-
Graham: Denim.
Jake: Roxul, or like rock wool. Like denim, it was a bad idea for a float center-
Graham: It’s a terrible idea-
Jake: Like anything coarse. Like, don’t blow in cellulose. Don’t do those things. It would just retain moisture. If you are going to do a blow-in, like if you have like little crevices and stuff like that, stick to the stone wall blow-in and stuff like that.
Graham: So yeah, let’s assume, I mean, obviously, they’re probably insulating it for thermal barriers-
Jake: Yeah. It’s an older building, they’re drafty. I bet that’s what they’re talking about. I think that’s what they’re talking about.
Graham: Lots of weird joists and stuff-
Jake: Yeah-
Graham: It’s just like weird little-
Jake: Old conduits.
Graham: Areas-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Where they’re trying to use something that isn’t spray-in-
Jake: Nooks.
Graham: It’s going to take a ton of time-
Jake: Or crannies. Yeah.
Graham: To have everything.
Jake: Because you got to get it efficient. You don’t want any gaps, basically, like a two percent gap-
Graham: Yeah.
Jake: 20 percent heat loss. So everything should be form fit to your area. If they’re doing bats, and there’s a lot of little nooks, that’s going to be labor intensive.
Graham: Either really hard or impossible-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Or just incredibly expensive.
Jake: So, what some people do with older buildings, more single story buildings, where like the top is, it’s like a hot place, or something like that. They will do an on-site application of a polyurethane foam insulation, basically spraying that into the joist base. And it expands. Then it also tightens up the structure, as well. Like, it does serve to tighten up the structure because it expands into every little nook and cranny, which means you’re getting less permeability, less air moving from within a space, and then from the outside of space as well. We do have a distinction here, though. Open cell versus closed cell polyurethane on-site application foam sprays.
Graham: Right, and I was going to say it’s actually the closed cell that does more of the tightening up of the structure, right?
Jake: It does, yeah. It does.
Graham: Like, that’s more of the structural, the structural insulation?
Jake: Yeah, it’s tighter, it blocks more moisture. It’s actually kind of like what we recommend for float centers. So, open cell is a little bit better at blocking out noise.
Graham: And just to backup a little bit, you could almost guess what this means with open cell versus closed cell insulation-
Jake: Right.
Graham: But, it’s basically just the open cell has kind of expanded-
Jake: Fractures.
Graham: Yeah.
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: It’s expanded, there’s little kind of air bubbles in there. Like, it’s an open kind of structure.
Jake: Yeah, air bubbles that pop. So like part circle and then part gash, and real porous. It’s good for thermal resistance and everything like that.
Graham: Good for soundproofing.
Jake: Yeah, good for soundproofing. The problem for us and some southern humid states, is that moisture will pass through it and then get stuck on the substrate. So, moisture will pass through insulation, and then get stuck on the underside of your roof, or get stuck on the underside of whatever. And that’s a problem for float centers. So we definitely say stick to the closed cell. And the closed cell, those bubbles just don’t pop. They’re still expanding. Those gases are inside there, but it’s just a thick, solid layer, so moisture can’t really pass through there.
Graham: Which means it’s not going to as a good job sound proofing, because it will just be kind of rigid and transmit a lot of vibrations-
Jake: Yeah, vibrations.
Graham: Vibrational noise. But it does do a much better job solidifying your structure-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Because I have this very tight, solid spray-in that’s-
Jake: Everything is trade offs, right.
Graham: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jake: It’s all trade offs.
Graham: But specifically for a float center, we kind of don’t even get to think about the trade offs on the good side for open cell insulation just because I mean, it’s so humid. The chances that you’re going to get mold when you do open cell spray-in insulation are just too high.
Jake: Just too high of risk.
Graham: Why risk it?
Jake: Yeah. And this is something that you hire a talented contractor to do. One, because again, you don’t want them to do poorly. And two, the stuff is pretty bad for your health.
Graham: It’s crazy.
Jake: You don’t really want to be in this space when people are doing it.
Graham: They go to like full almost like Hazmat suits-
Jake: Oh, yeah. For sure.
Graham: Your entire-
Jake: Respirators.
Graham: Your entire building is kind of also in a Hazmat suit-
Jake: Yeah, yeah.
Graham: Because if that settles anywhere, it really sticks to it-
Jake: Good reason to be in good communication with your contractor, your general, just making sure that you’re not showing up right after that happened.
Graham: Yeah, it would be terrible, for example, if you accidentally blew expanding foam over into your neighbor’s space-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: While they were giving a haircut or something like that.
Jake: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Not that we’d know anything about-
Jake: Yeah, and then foam got all over their fancy vest-
Graham: Yeah.
Jake: And their hat. And then we had to buy that for them.
Graham: Yeah, that’d be terrible. You definitely should really be careful with the contractors installing things.
Jake: I will say, that hole no longer exists, for what it’s worth.
Graham: It’s true.
Jake: For what it’s worth.
Graham: Yeah, no we discovered some more places where we could tighten up our own construction as a result of that, yeah.
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Okay, so spray-in insulation totally makes sense.
Jake: Yep.
Graham: You were closed cell spray-in insulation.
Jake: Mm-hmm. And whenever I’m saying “spray-in” usually on exterior walls or ceilings, you know what I mean? Like we don’t see that a lot in between float rooms, you know what I mean?
Graham: Ah. Good point.
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: yeah, I was assuming that it was going to be on the ceiling-
Jake: Right, yeah. I’m always making these assumptions, and I’m like, “Wait a minute. Is everyone on the same-“
Graham: So, yeah. And the exterior wall, of course, is just a little more important for the stuff because you have the entire environment out there.
Jake: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Graham: So the amount of-
Jake: You’ve got a conditioned space, you have an unconditioned space.
Graham: Yeah, so getting that barrier, and yeah getting some kind of insulation up is really critical. Older buildings-
Jake: Mm-hmm.
Graham: You know, if they did have good insulation at one point, it’s almost certainly gone. They might not have had it to begin with.
Jake: Yeah, and we’ve seen people that have skimmed on some things. Like they’ve cut back a little bit on that exterior insulation, not on the outside of the building, but those exterior walls, and that’s where you see moisture damage. That’s where you see peeling, that’s where you see panels de-laminating from all the like. Every wall is fine except for this wall, and it’s like, well that’s your exterior wall. You should have figured that out. You should have insulated that a little better. You know? You’ve got two more inches in the room, but now you’re dealing with this constant problem.
Graham: So yeah, no and it makes total sense to me. I think your contractor’s recommendation is-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Without looking deeply at the plans in your actual building, it definitely makes sense. And I can understand why a contractor would recommend spray-in insulation. Maybe mention to them that you’d like closed cell, if they weren’t planning on it.
Jake: Definitely mention it to them.
Graham: Yeah. Yeah, if they know it’s a humid environment and all the details of your float center, they’re probably already planning on that anyway.
Jake: Be sure to be hip to it, though. Just check. No matter what.
Graham: Always check, yeah.
Jake: Yeah, always check. And on the very likely chance that we’re wrong, and you were talking about like you wanted to blow-in some denim. Don’t.
Graham: Yeah, don’t.
Jake: Don’t do it.
Graham: Yeah, for the same reason, but even more so that you don’t want the open cell insulation-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Which is just anything that can collect that moisture-
Jake: Yep.
Graham: Anything that’s permeable at all. It’s just –
Jake: Mold or mildew.
Graham: Yeah, you’re asking for-
Jake: That’s another whole thing-
Graham: Issues.
Jake: You know what I mean, the polyurethane? No food. No mold. No mildew. So, all right cool. Yeah. All right, thanks for submitting that question. I really appreciate it. Long question, short answer. Sorry for that. But if you guys have more questions for us, please send those in at FloatTankSolutions.com/Podcast, and thanks for spending this time for us today. All right, so back to yoga?
Graham: Goodbye everyone.
Recent Podcast Episodes
When DON’T you Feel Like Floating? – DSP 275
Graham has Juliet on the podcast today since Ashkahn is doing some post-Conference traveling.
The duo talks about times when floating just doesn’t feel like a good idea, which is something they have a bit of disagreement about. Juliet shares her experiences being cautious of her experiences in the tank and how she tends to have to be more mindful of when she floats.
How do you Handle Changing Memberships? – DSP 274
This year at the Float Conference, Derek hosted a marketing forum and took questions that he wanted to share with everyone here.
This episode focuses on how Float On handles memberships, including tiered memberships and how to gracefully transition from one type of membership to another.
Are Vapor Barriers a Good Idea for Float Centers? – DSP 273
You can tell when Graham starts to miss Ashkahn when he makes a soundboard made up of sound clips from previous episodes just to have Ashkahn do another intro.
Jake and Graham break down barriers in this episode. Vapor barriers, that is. These tools are a little confusing in the construction world and their efficacy is hotly debated in just regular construction, never mind the demands that a float center has, especially in regards to moisture protection. Fortunately, Graham and Jake know a thing or two about a thing or two and explain what vapor barriers are, how they work, and what the source of contention is.
What to Consider with Plumbing in a New Float Center – DSP 272
Graham and Jake talk about the confusing world of plumbing for your float center. There are any number of unpleasant surprises that can come about when planning the water lines to showers, getting floor drains in place, and making sure everything lines up how it’s supposed to. If the sewer main is too deep or not where you think it is, it can add a significant amount of cost to your build out just to get floor drains installed. Fortunately, the guys have some useful tricks to help mitigate costs and plan accordingly.
Are Tankless Water Heaters the Best? – DSP 270
Graham and Jake take on talking about Tankless or “On Demand” water heaters today. They break down a lot of the benefits of them compared to storage water heaters like the fact that they provide a nearly limitless source of hot water, require less energy consumption, etc. They’re not perfect though, and any float center considering one should look closely on how best to implement them. Jake shares some of the pitfalls of them as well as how to maximize their usefulness.
Latest Blog Posts
Oh, the Questions You’ll Hear!
When you run a float tank center, you’re going to get asked a lot of questions. Do I float naked? Can I drown? Is this sanitary? Many of these are easy to answer: It’s recommended. Not without a conscious, and determined effort. Yes! There are some questions, however,...
Happy TANKSgiving (Giving Gifts to Monthly Members)
Monthly memberships are an important way to ensure that your float tank center has a consistent, if not dependable, amount of business.
While pricing structures for memberships vary widely across the industry, we’re focusing less on the strategy of what to charge and looking more at the benefits we’re actually offering. Once we’ve established a solid offering, then we can revisit pricing.
Running a successful monthly membership program takes more than just charging customers and making sure they use their credits. With a little creativity, we can find ways to increase engagement.
Your Flow Meter May Be Inaccurate (and what to do about it)
Float tanks tend to use a lot of parts borrowed from the pool and spa industry and, whenever that happens, it’s always important to question whether that pool part works accurately with our salt water solution. We’ve recently gained some insight into that question on...
The Float Tour Blog Roundup!
The following is our collection of links to the all of the Float Tour blogs. My chronicling of our adventure, highlighting all of you out there.
Thank you for the memories.
