Something in the world of floating have you stumped?
Show Highlights
Graham and Jake are still in a sans Ashkahn world at Daily Solutions, but they’re not letting it harsh their mellow.
The guys are talking about the different types of spray-in insulation today. It’s a pretty common material in construction and it can be a fantastic insulator for float centers, if you get the right type.
Jake and Graham go over the differences between open cell and closed cell insulation and why, specifically, float centers should avoid open cell insulation. They also provide some excellent pointers on the materials themselves and good conversations to have with a contractor regarding insulation.
Show Resources
Listen to Just the Audio
Transcription of this episode… (in case you prefer reading)
Graham: All right. Welcome everybody to our podcast.
Jake: Thank you for joining us.
Graham: I am Graham.
Jake: I am Jake.
Graham: I thought you were going to say, “I am Ashkahn.” I’m like so used to hearing that.
Jake: I thought about it.
Graham: Okay, all right. So today’s question is, “What about spray-in insulation? My contractor recommended it for the building I’m moving into, which is on the older side.”
Jake: Hmm, the building is on the older side.
Graham: I assume not the spray-in insulation-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Or the contractor.
Jake: Yeah, I know, right? What’s with this insulation? All right, so I guess we’re talking about on-site spray-in polyurethane, like foam insulation.
Graham: Yeah, so I guess first of all, you can spray almost anything, right?
Jake: Yeah, like you can do blow-in of-
Graham: Denim.
Jake: Roxul, or like rock wool. Like denim, it was a bad idea for a float center-
Graham: It’s a terrible idea-
Jake: Like anything coarse. Like, don’t blow in cellulose. Don’t do those things. It would just retain moisture. If you are going to do a blow-in, like if you have like little crevices and stuff like that, stick to the stone wall blow-in and stuff like that.
Graham: So yeah, let’s assume, I mean, obviously, they’re probably insulating it for thermal barriers-
Jake: Yeah. It’s an older building, they’re drafty. I bet that’s what they’re talking about. I think that’s what they’re talking about.
Graham: Lots of weird joists and stuff-
Jake: Yeah-
Graham: It’s just like weird little-
Jake: Old conduits.
Graham: Areas-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Where they’re trying to use something that isn’t spray-in-
Jake: Nooks.
Graham: It’s going to take a ton of time-
Jake: Or crannies. Yeah.
Graham: To have everything.
Jake: Because you got to get it efficient. You don’t want any gaps, basically, like a two percent gap-
Graham: Yeah.
Jake: 20 percent heat loss. So everything should be form fit to your area. If they’re doing bats, and there’s a lot of little nooks, that’s going to be labor intensive.
Graham: Either really hard or impossible-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Or just incredibly expensive.
Jake: So, what some people do with older buildings, more single story buildings, where like the top is, it’s like a hot place, or something like that. They will do an on-site application of a polyurethane foam insulation, basically spraying that into the joist base. And it expands. Then it also tightens up the structure, as well. Like, it does serve to tighten up the structure because it expands into every little nook and cranny, which means you’re getting less permeability, less air moving from within a space, and then from the outside of space as well. We do have a distinction here, though. Open cell versus closed cell polyurethane on-site application foam sprays.
Graham: Right, and I was going to say it’s actually the closed cell that does more of the tightening up of the structure, right?
Jake: It does, yeah. It does.
Graham: Like, that’s more of the structural, the structural insulation?
Jake: Yeah, it’s tighter, it blocks more moisture. It’s actually kind of like what we recommend for float centers. So, open cell is a little bit better at blocking out noise.
Graham: And just to backup a little bit, you could almost guess what this means with open cell versus closed cell insulation-
Jake: Right.
Graham: But, it’s basically just the open cell has kind of expanded-
Jake: Fractures.
Graham: Yeah.
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: It’s expanded, there’s little kind of air bubbles in there. Like, it’s an open kind of structure.
Jake: Yeah, air bubbles that pop. So like part circle and then part gash, and real porous. It’s good for thermal resistance and everything like that.
Graham: Good for soundproofing.
Jake: Yeah, good for soundproofing. The problem for us and some southern humid states, is that moisture will pass through it and then get stuck on the substrate. So, moisture will pass through insulation, and then get stuck on the underside of your roof, or get stuck on the underside of whatever. And that’s a problem for float centers. So we definitely say stick to the closed cell. And the closed cell, those bubbles just don’t pop. They’re still expanding. Those gases are inside there, but it’s just a thick, solid layer, so moisture can’t really pass through there.
Graham: Which means it’s not going to as a good job sound proofing, because it will just be kind of rigid and transmit a lot of vibrations-
Jake: Yeah, vibrations.
Graham: Vibrational noise. But it does do a much better job solidifying your structure-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Because I have this very tight, solid spray-in that’s-
Jake: Everything is trade offs, right.
Graham: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jake: It’s all trade offs.
Graham: But specifically for a float center, we kind of don’t even get to think about the trade offs on the good side for open cell insulation just because I mean, it’s so humid. The chances that you’re going to get mold when you do open cell spray-in insulation are just too high.
Jake: Just too high of risk.
Graham: Why risk it?
Jake: Yeah. And this is something that you hire a talented contractor to do. One, because again, you don’t want them to do poorly. And two, the stuff is pretty bad for your health.
Graham: It’s crazy.
Jake: You don’t really want to be in this space when people are doing it.
Graham: They go to like full almost like Hazmat suits-
Jake: Oh, yeah. For sure.
Graham: Your entire-
Jake: Respirators.
Graham: Your entire building is kind of also in a Hazmat suit-
Jake: Yeah, yeah.
Graham: Because if that settles anywhere, it really sticks to it-
Jake: Good reason to be in good communication with your contractor, your general, just making sure that you’re not showing up right after that happened.
Graham: Yeah, it would be terrible, for example, if you accidentally blew expanding foam over into your neighbor’s space-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: While they were giving a haircut or something like that.
Jake: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Not that we’d know anything about-
Jake: Yeah, and then foam got all over their fancy vest-
Graham: Yeah.
Jake: And their hat. And then we had to buy that for them.
Graham: Yeah, that’d be terrible. You definitely should really be careful with the contractors installing things.
Jake: I will say, that hole no longer exists, for what it’s worth.
Graham: It’s true.
Jake: For what it’s worth.
Graham: Yeah, no we discovered some more places where we could tighten up our own construction as a result of that, yeah.
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Okay, so spray-in insulation totally makes sense.
Jake: Yep.
Graham: You were closed cell spray-in insulation.
Jake: Mm-hmm. And whenever I’m saying “spray-in” usually on exterior walls or ceilings, you know what I mean? Like we don’t see that a lot in between float rooms, you know what I mean?
Graham: Ah. Good point.
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: yeah, I was assuming that it was going to be on the ceiling-
Jake: Right, yeah. I’m always making these assumptions, and I’m like, “Wait a minute. Is everyone on the same-“
Graham: So, yeah. And the exterior wall, of course, is just a little more important for the stuff because you have the entire environment out there.
Jake: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Graham: So the amount of-
Jake: You’ve got a conditioned space, you have an unconditioned space.
Graham: Yeah, so getting that barrier, and yeah getting some kind of insulation up is really critical. Older buildings-
Jake: Mm-hmm.
Graham: You know, if they did have good insulation at one point, it’s almost certainly gone. They might not have had it to begin with.
Jake: Yeah, and we’ve seen people that have skimmed on some things. Like they’ve cut back a little bit on that exterior insulation, not on the outside of the building, but those exterior walls, and that’s where you see moisture damage. That’s where you see peeling, that’s where you see panels de-laminating from all the like. Every wall is fine except for this wall, and it’s like, well that’s your exterior wall. You should have figured that out. You should have insulated that a little better. You know? You’ve got two more inches in the room, but now you’re dealing with this constant problem.
Graham: So yeah, no and it makes total sense to me. I think your contractor’s recommendation is-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Without looking deeply at the plans in your actual building, it definitely makes sense. And I can understand why a contractor would recommend spray-in insulation. Maybe mention to them that you’d like closed cell, if they weren’t planning on it.
Jake: Definitely mention it to them.
Graham: Yeah. Yeah, if they know it’s a humid environment and all the details of your float center, they’re probably already planning on that anyway.
Jake: Be sure to be hip to it, though. Just check. No matter what.
Graham: Always check, yeah.
Jake: Yeah, always check. And on the very likely chance that we’re wrong, and you were talking about like you wanted to blow-in some denim. Don’t.
Graham: Yeah, don’t.
Jake: Don’t do it.
Graham: Yeah, for the same reason, but even more so that you don’t want the open cell insulation-
Jake: Yeah.
Graham: Which is just anything that can collect that moisture-
Jake: Yep.
Graham: Anything that’s permeable at all. It’s just –
Jake: Mold or mildew.
Graham: Yeah, you’re asking for-
Jake: That’s another whole thing-
Graham: Issues.
Jake: You know what I mean, the polyurethane? No food. No mold. No mildew. So, all right cool. Yeah. All right, thanks for submitting that question. I really appreciate it. Long question, short answer. Sorry for that. But if you guys have more questions for us, please send those in at FloatTankSolutions.com/Podcast, and thanks for spending this time for us today. All right, so back to yoga?
Graham: Goodbye everyone.
Recent Podcast Episodes
What to do if your Float Center Loses Power – DSP 184
What do you do with your float center if an emergency happens? What if your center loses power for several days and there’s nothing you can do about it? Float tanks rely on having a well regulated system to stay functional and we know that if it gets out of whack, everything can get pretty messy. So if you know this is happening, how do you prevent the worst of it?
Graham and Ashkahn work through this problem and come up with some solutions to prevent things like salt crystallization and upsetting your tank chemistry too much.
How to Handle Business Partner Disputes – DSP 183
It’s often said that having business partners is a lot like having a marriage, and just like a successful marriage, having a successful relationship with your business partner (or partners, we’re not here to judge) requires effective communication, patience, and compromise.
Float On has 5 owners, and they haven’t always agreed on the best course of action. So naturally disagreements happen, but how you handle them is the worthier part. Graham and Ashkahn share their experiences and what’s helped make Float On a success 7 years and counting.
Float Center Name Suggestions – DSP 182
There’s enough float centers out there now to have some established naming conventions for centers. It can feel like all the good names are already taken. Fortunately, Graham and Ashkahn have taken the time come up with a list of a few floaty sounding names that are so far not taken but totally awesome.
What Benefits of Floating have been Proven Scientifically? – DSP 181
Most float centers have to deal with the difficult problem of describing the benefits of floating to those who haven’t tried it yet or are just starting their float journeys. What is safe and accurate to say? Obviously, you don’t want to be advertising false claims if you can help it, but it can be difficult to find accurate information that tells a full story about floating.
Graham and Ashkahn dive into the resources available and clear up some of the confusion surrounding our salty practice. Check out the show notes for a list of great resources!
How Best to Heat Your Float Tank – DSP 180
In this episode, Graham and Ashkahn break down the pros and cons (not Kahns) of different types of heating typically used in float tanks. Aside from going over the most common types of heating, they also provide tips and tricks for keeping your tanks warm that don’t have to do with water temperature and making sure you’re providing a comfortable experience for your customers.
Latest Blog Posts
How to Reduce Ground Vibrations for Float Tanks
While sound and light proofing are the most salient examples of sensory deprivation involved with float tanks, we receive questions regarding the elimination of low-rumbling noises caused by vibrations from the surrounding environment. Since it’s important that float...
Presenting the 2014 State of the Float Industry
A Word on Our Data Where it Comes from & What it all Means Just before the 2014 Float Conference, we sent out two questionnaires to members of the float community. One targeting existing centers to see how they got started, what they’re doing now, and what...
How to Run Useful Tests With Your Construction
“Negative results are just what I want. They’re just as valuable to me as positive results. I can never find the thing that does the job best until I find the ones that don’t.” ― Thomas A. Edison Test Early, Test Often There are few things as terrifying as spending a...
Before Your Float Center has a Location, Get Online
So… You want to start a float center? One of the first thing people do is they begin researching. They scour the internet for float tank information in preparation for holding educated conversations with future customers. After all, you will be seen as the expert, so...
